This article is based on episode #26 of A Bridge To Wholeness podcast. You can listen to the episode on iTunes, Stitcher, and on our website.

Jennifer Crisp: I am excited to have as our guest, Debbie Ulrich, who is of NRG Balancing. That’s N-R-G Balancing. Debbie is an energy kinesiologist among many other things. She holds many, many certifications. She specializes in pain reduction, stress management, emotional issues, but today, we’re going to be talking about a very interesting subject that has been floating around in the medical world, especially in the alternative medical world for a few years now. That is EBV, which is Epstein-Barr virus. Debbie is a somewhat of an expert in this area. We have some questions for her. We’re going to let her explain what Epstein-Barr virus does and how we can deal with it if we suspect that we have it or that we know that we have it. Welcome to the podcast today, Debbie.

Debbie Ulrich: Thank you so much for having me.

Jennifer Crisp: Well, I really appreciate it. I am speaking with Debbie between her seeing clients and she is a very busy lady, so we want to get as much information from her as we can before she has to hop off the phone and go see somebody else. Debbie, can you just explain to us what Epstein-Barr virus is?

Debbie Ulrich: Sure. I’d love to. Epstein-Barr virus is part of the herpes family, and it goes by many names; EBV, which is the abbreviation for Epstein-Barr virus. It’s also known as mononucleosis or mono. Some people even call it the kissing disease, and the reason that it gets that name is because it is so contagious through bodily fluids. The most common of course would be transfer of saliva during a kissing session, so thus the name kissing disease. It’s also related to the chickenpox family. I’m sure that the listeners will recognize one or more of these names that I’ve mentioned. It is a virus, and it can attack every part of the body, every organ or gland. In the traditional medical community, it is labeled as herpes virus number four and, again, in the traditional medical model, it’s believed that there are eight varieties of herpes virus.

Just to throw out two of the most common ones, herpes one is the oral herpes, herpes two is to the genital herpes. I’ll throw in a third one that many people have heard of, which is herpes zoster, but it’s more commonly known as shingles. That is number seven of the eight that I’m mentioning. I’m just saying that because, unfortunately, when people hear the word herpes, I find and think that they go right to either herpes one or herpes two and think, how could it be part of the herpes family? I want to assure everybody that just because it’s in the herpes family, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the same as the type one or type two.

Jennifer Crisp: I did know that there were quite a few varieties but I wasn’t sure exactly how many. In the conventional medical world, they recognize eight of them. Is that what you said?

Debbie Ulrich: That is correct. As I’ve worked more and more specifically with Epstein-Barr virus, which from this point forward I will refer to as EBV, excuse me, there are over 30 strains of just the EBV. I’m hesitating because when I first started working with the EBV pre to what I’m doing now, I started noticing that there were multiple strains, and I found that confusing until I continued to work with it and realized that the reason I’m getting this information is there are, I may be repeating myself, but there are over 30 strains of just the EBV virus, which makes me wonder. I’m thinking out loud. Does that mean there’s also multiple strains of some of these other herpes viruses? We won’t go there.

Jennifer Crisp: Right. Yeah, I understand, because we would be here all day just discussing that, wouldn’t we? From what I know of the herpes virus or EBV, anybody can get it. It does give us chickenpox. Correct? We can get mouth sores, the blisters. What would we call it?

Debbie Ulrich: Canker sores or fever blisters.

Jennifer Crisp: Fever blisters, yes. For some reason, I couldn’t think of the name of that, and the genital warts that we hear off. Also, of course, probably one of the best known is the mono. My question to you is, and I do know this just being a nurse in the medical world, that children often contract EBV at a young age, and then we see that as of course chickenpox. Well, of course, now we have the chickenpox vaccine, but when I was young and even my children who are in their 30s, they all had chickenpox because the vaccine didn’t come out until later. Is that true? What happens when we get the virus? Does it stay with us? Does it leave the body? What happens?

Debbie Ulrich: It does not leave the body. I think that’s where traditional medicine and holistic medicine is going to start to part ways. There’s probably going to be some conversation and argument within the alternative health community as well. I have to emphasize that I have been working with this for a while now and I’m finding that you’re just going to have to, I guess, on some level trust me when I say that if you have chickenpox, you’ve got that virus in your body, which is related to the EBV virus. If you’ve got mono, then you’ve got the EBV virus. Either way, you’ve been exposed to this virus. I indicated earlier how easily it can be transferred, especially among children because children are very quick to share things such as here, have a sip of my water, have a sip of my whatever. They’re very trusting and they share everything.

Jennifer Crisp: They share the things we don’t want them to share. Right? The things we want them to share and the things we don’t want them to share, they seem to be more willing to do that.

Debbie Ulrich: I’m not suggesting that a new mother go behind their child every time they go to pick up a toy or put one down and clean it off. My point is that that’s how easily it can be passed on, which means that just about everybody has been exposed to the chickenpox or the EBV, which means there’s a huge amount of people that are walking around with these diseases, and they may not always manifest in the traditional way that we think of. You can’t expect them to go away in the traditional way either. By that, what I’m really referring to is the traditional way for treating, specifically mono, is, oh, it’ll go away after a few weeks. You just need rest. Assuming you follow that protocol, sure, in time, you are going to feel better, but the problem that really is happening is that the virus has become dormant or it has gone deeper into the body and attacked different parts of the body and hidden there so it’s no longer presenting in the same symptoms, but it just hangs out there.

Now we move forward. Let’s say that this child has been exposed to this and they’re not presenting symptoms. At some point down the road, and that could be five years, 20, 30, 50 years, now they start to have some health problem. It could be a little ache in the joint or the muscles that nobody can explain, but this is actually the same virus starting to manifest itself, and it can do that in many different ways. It presents itself I’m finding in a lot of different health issues, which I don’t know if I’m jumping ahead of where we want to go, Jennifer.

Jennifer Crisp: The typical one that we think of because of that would be shingles. That would be a very typical manifestation of EBV that has been dormant for years, and I think that’s what a lot of people … That’s the most familiar thing. They say, well, if you’ve had chickenpox, then the virus is within you and you can, at some point in your life, get shingles. I think that’s the most common thing that we’re used to hearing.

Debbie Ulrich: Well, shingles is really herpes zoster. They are very related, yes. I find that people who have EBV, I’m also picking up that they have shingles or herpes zoster, whatever you want to call it. With the herpes zoster, the typical presentation is that you have a very painful rash that appears on the skin and then you’re diagnosed with herpes zoster or shingles. I’m finding that with the clientele I’m working with that they’re having very, very deep pain and they’re not having a rash, but the pain that they’re having is nerve pain. It could also be fascia pain, which is now we’re getting into the connective tissue in the body, but it’s a pain that is almost debilitating, and none of the doctors have medical equipment to diagnose what it is.

This leads us down the next road, which is people are walking around being medicated for and diagnosed for things and treated for things when they’re not addressing the underlying cause, which is the herpes zoster/shingles or the EBV. What happens is the people that are walking through my door, they’re just continuing to get sicker and sicker. They’re being put on more and more medications to address the next symptom that shows up, and they end up in this big cycle of more and more meds, and they’re coming to me basically and saying help. I want to get off this stuff, and I want to feel better. I am enabling that to occur. I’d like to give some people something to think about that I’m seeing is going on with the clientele I have walking in if I’m not jumping ahead, Jennifer. Is that a good transition?

Jennifer Crisp: Yeah, that’s fine because this is where I think there is a lot of question about people who do go to see their primary care physician. They have this type of pain but there’s no root cause. Basically, maybe it’s idiopathic or they’re just not sure. They do treat the symptoms obviously because they need to handle the pain, but what you’re saying is that they’re coming into you and you’re able to look at it a little bit differently.

Debbie Ulrich: Yeah. I always take the approach of what is the underlying cause? The example I like to use is, okay, you come in and you say you’ve got a headache. Well, I could easily say to take two aspirin and call me in the morning, to use that joke, but it’s not that simplistic. I’m not attracting people that have a simple occasional headache. I’d have to look at, well, what’s driving the body to have this headache? Because the headache, although it may be very painful, is the symptom. It’s not the issue. I beg the people that are listening to understand that difference because the medical community, and this not a put down, this is a fact, they are trained to address the symptoms you present. If it doesn’t get well from there, then they will probably run additional testing to see why. You may or may not get an answer. I’m getting the people that are not getting answers and are not getting better.

Some of the underlying health issues that the EBV could be causing could be depression, anxiety. Now we’re getting into the mental illness worlds when you start having those issues, and other neurological issues like brain fog. The interesting thing about those particular things is that’s very common with Lyme disease, which is a whole other conversation. I throw that out there because don’t be too quick, if you’re a practitioner listening, to assume that if they have depression, anxiety and/or brain fog, oh, let’s go look at Lyme. Yeah, you need to look at it, but don’t assume because it may not be Lyme, or it could be Lyme and Epstein-Barr virus. You have to be very open-minded.

Moving along, other neurological issues can be tied into EBV. I don’t want to start throwing out different mental health issues because then it may sound like I’m diagnosing, which I’m not. People are coming in to me and saying, this is what I’ve been diagnosed with, and I’m finding that they have EBV in the brain and in the brainstem and different parts of the body that can affect a person so that they have depression and anxiety.

I’m going to move away from the brain because what I’m also finding is that women more so than men seem to be diagnosed with bone diseases such as osteopenia, osteoarthritis and so on. I’m also finding that what’s happening is the EBV is getting into the bones and it’s actually causing a type of deterioration of the bones. Again, I’m looking at what is the cause, not what is the symptom. The symptom is these bone diseases. The cause is the EBV. It can get into the bones. It can get into the muscles and the different deep tissues that go with the entire musculoskeletal system. It can affect the nerves and cause the nerve receptors to have trouble turning off, which now results in pain. It really likes to mess with the endocrine system. For the listeners who aren’t familiar with what the endocrine system is, that deals with your hormones and different organs and glands such as the thyroid. How many women out there have thyroid issues? That’s a whole other conversation.

I was at a wonderful workshop a few years ago, and the doctor there brought up a fascinating point where she said there was no such thing as thyroid issues until the government … whoops. Probably shouldn’t have said that. Started dumping fluoride in our water. Now we’ve got a whole-

Jennifer Crisp: There’s an entire … I think there’s more than one book out there about the effects of fluoride in the water and the controversy surrounding fluoride. I should just do an episode on that as well. Very interesting.

Debbie Ulrich: We’ve got the thyroid, the thyroid receptors, which can be thrown off by EBV. The adrenals, when one or both of those are off, now you’re dealing with fatigue, which can vary from I’m just a little tired to I can’t even get up and go to work today. It can also cause when you’re in the endocrine sleep system, you’re dealing with the pineal gland, the hypothalamus and the pituitary. If you’re not familiar what those are, we’re now dealing with female and male hormone levels and different hormones that deal with the sleep. I’m not going to get into a whole lot of detailed conversation about that.

Now what are we talking about? Now we got men and women who have hormonal issues and sleep issues, which can be anything from I can’t go to sleep or I go to sleep, but then I wake up in the middle of the night and I have trouble going back to sleep. I’m not talking about, oh, I wake up and I have a full bladder and I have to go to the bathroom and I can go back to bed and go right back to sleep. That’s a whole other issue. This is people that wake up at 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, maybe even 5:00. They may realize they have to eliminate or void and empty their bladder, but they can’t go back to sleep.

Jennifer Crisp: Here’s my question then. There are so many of us carrying around … I think a lot of us carry around a ton of viruses. Especially the older we get, we’re just exposed to more and more and more. Now with the environment and the amount of pollution that is hitting all of us because we do know that worldwide pollution kills more people than anything else. I think my question is, how do we restore the immune system so that these viruses can go dormant again? Because we can’t clear the virus of the body, we’re saying, but we can help to reduce the effect of it. Is that how you approach this when you’re dealing with clients?

Debbie Ulrich: No, because my goal is to eliminate the source. I don’t want the virus to go dormant because then something is going happen and it’s going to trigger it again, and that trigger is going to be stress. Stress can be anything from I just dropped a gallon of milk on the floor and I have to clean it up to I have finals coming up next week or it could be some major trauma, my parent died.

Jennifer Crisp: Stress can also be good. It can be like you just got a brand new job and now the thought of, oh my gosh, I’ve got a brand new job. It’s great, but at the same time, it can cause a degree of stress. It doesn’t even have to be something negative per se. Stress is stress. Our bodies don’t recognize it. They don’t particularly say, oh, this is happy stress, so I won’t have to do my stress hormone thing. This is bad stress. I have to bring up all the hormones. The body doesn’t know the difference between that. The body just knows stress is stress.

Debbie Ulrich: That’s absolutely right. I’m so glad you clarified that. I actually am finding that … I make custom-blended liposomes for my clientele. This is not something I developed. It’s a couple of classes that I took to learn how to do this. It is custom blended for the individual, and I base what goes in there, which is a combination of essential oils and herbs based on the different pathogens that show up in the body. Pathogens would be equivalent to germs. Because people who have EBV, unfortunately, it’s not a single … What’s the word I’m searching for? It’s not a single pathogen illness. There’s going to be other germs that come with it.

I’ve worked with it enough now that I find that it seems to also bring strep and staph. People who are presenting with EBV seem to show a lot of that. There’s a specific parasite that I’m now picking up that seems everybody I’ve worked with, with EBV, has the specific parasite I’m working with. I have to go after the parasite because that parasite is probably the carrier of the EBV, but it’s not that simple. You can’t just go on a parasite cleanse and eliminate everything because the EVB has, as I said earlier, it started to hide itself in all these hard to get places in the body. That brings us back to another conversation because the reason why the EBV can survive and be so successful is it can go into places of the body where there is no blood supply.

What’s so important about that piece of information is when you take any tincture or a capsule or a pill, wherever that is supposed to go, your body relies on your blood to deliver it to that location. If something is hiding in the body that’s away from your blood supply, guess what? None of those things are going to get to it. That’s the beauty of the liposome, because the liposome is really four ingredients. It’s water, the herbs, and the oils that I mentioned, and the fourth ingredient is what makes it so different from everything else, and that’s lecithin. Lecithin is a type of fat. It does not make a person gain weight. The reason that it is important is because a lot of different germs and pathogens are attracted to the fat. On a molecular level, the outer sphere of the molecule is a layer of fat, and inside of it is the herbs and the oil. The different germs will latch on to this sphere and carry it off into these hiding places that we’re talking about.

Just to give the listeners some ideas because I keep mentioning muscles and bones, but I want you to also realize that there are other parts of the body who don’t have a high blood supply, such as the gallbladder. That’s why you have so many gallbladder issues in this country. Also, your joints. How many people have joint issues? The brain doesn’t have a high blood supply, nor do women’s breast or mammary glands, whatever name you want to call it. The liposome will get deep into these different areas, and it will help eliminate the disease.

Legally, I cannot claim that it will eradicate or eliminate. I’m just telling you that I’ve got a lot of happier, healthier clientele as a result of using liposomes. Again, it’s custom-blended based on the individual’s specific needs. That’s how I address it. Of course, you need other products to address the symptoms and the other health issues as well. Those other products, it’s a customized protocol that I create for each of these individuals. I’m not comfortable saying, oh, and you should take XYZ and ABC because that may not be the right formula for the listener.

Jennifer Crisp: Where is this? I know you said you’ve studied this and taken a class. How did they come about recognizing the liposome as being effective to treat this?

Debbie Ulrich: This is something that I have found. I wasn’t specifically told by anyone nor did I read anywhere specifically that liposomes would be good for EBV. I originally was taught how to make the liposomes as part of a Lyme disease training.

When I started recognizing this whole EBV issue, I thought, oh, this will also be good for EBV. Actually, Epstein-Barr virus is one of the many co-infections that can come with Lyme. That’s a red flag, but it doesn’t mean, I want to make sure everybody understands, that does not mean that you have Lyme disease just because you have EBV. That’s where you need a really informed practitioner to start putting all these pieces together so that they can look at all the possibilities. I do that.

EBV will attack the body in a manner very similar to the way that Lyme disease does. That’s what makes the liposome really great for the EBV as well. It’s not something that I would put everybody who walks through my door on, on a liposome, although there’s a great many who are on it because I seem to be attracting people with the Lyme disease and the EBV.

Jennifer Crisp: Well, I know that when you have Lyme, again, the co-infections, there’s many of them. Because the immune system gets so knocked down when we have those chronic diseases like that, it brings up those dormant viruses and makes us more ill.

Debbie Ulrich: Yes. That brings me back to the liposome because the liposome has … I glossed over the essential oils that are in the liposome. What the beauty of essential oils is they multitask, so do the herbs, but the oils, everything has its vibrational frequency, so do the oils, so do the herbs. The herbs also multitask. They’re going to bring up your body’s chi, which is a word for energy, to help make your body stronger so your body can actually start to do its job and start to fight off these different immune-compromising illnesses. At the same time, the product is going to help eradicate it from the body because of the way that the liposome is designed. I’m finding that-

Jennifer Crisp: How would you know that the virus has been eradicated? Do you just go by symptomology at that point?

Debbie Ulrich: Well, that’s one of the things. I do have people frequently telling me that they feel much better. I just had a woman in here this morning who she said, I hope she doesn’t mind me saying this but I’m not going to identify her by name, she said, “You helped me get over things that other doctors have not been able to help me get over, and they’ve been looking at me for years.” She went on to name the speciality of those doctors. I hear that often.

The other way that I find out where it’s going is I take body fluids, and I muscle test them, and this is a whole other probably conversation for another workshop. I’m very confident in my muscle testing. I’ve been doing it for almost 20 years. I’m confident enough that I’ve written and taught muscle testing classes. When I say I’ve written, I’ve written a book that goes with the muscle testing class. I feel very, very confident. I’m testing let’s just say the saliva, for example. I’m testing, does it have bacteria? That’s a yes or no question. Okay, well, then I got to figure out if it’s a yes, well what is the bacteria so that I know what I’m working with. That’s how I’m finding the commonalities that I mentioned earlier. They always seem to have strep, and they very frequently have staph.

We’re now moving on to the next category. Do they have virus? Again, that’s a yes or no. If it’s a yes, how many strains? That’s where the interesting thing is coming in about EBV because I’ve had people come in here with 25 different viruses. It’s all the EBV strain. The way I’m finding that out is through the muscle testing. That kind of information you don’t get through lab tests. Although it’s nice to see people bring in their lab reports, and I certainly look at it, it’s only one piece of the puzzle. I break it down. From that point, you get the idea. I also test to see if there’s inflammation that shows up, which will show up in body fluids, parasites, protozoa, different types of fungi, which can be anything from fungus to mold to Candida or some people pronounce it as Candida, just so we all know what I’m referring to.

That has proven to be a very effective way for me to determine what I’m dealing with because I have to know what I’m dealing with so that I can understand what exactly goes in the liposome. That’s just not I close my eyes and pick up a bottle mentality. The course I went through was very in depth as to when I was taught how to make the liposomes. What products help which issue and which health or immune suppressing illness?

Jennifer Crisp: This has been a really fascinating conversation with you because I know you’ve been doing this for well over 20 years, and your knowledge base is quite extensive. I know for some people, this conversation we’re having today might seem really, really outside of the box. Again, though, you are working with people who are at their wits end. They don’t know what else to do. They’ve been down that very traditional road. They’re not getting answers or they’re just very frustrated. They’re still dealing with a lot of pain, fatigue, brain fog, you name it, and they step into your place and you give them hope and working through with what you do. It sounds like you’re just peeling back the onion. You’re just peeling back the layers and layers and layers until you are really getting down to the nitty gritty of what’s going on in the body.

I would love to bring you back on and just do an episode or two about Lyme because there’s so much similarity here, but we just don’t have any more time. I want people to be able to know where they can reach you, how they can get in touch with you, how they can find out more, if they’re in a place where they just feel like, oh my gosh, what else is out there for me? Because this is what’s happening in I think the world of health and wellness, is that people do want options and complementary medicine and complementary healing is here. There are more and more practitioners out there doing all kinds of wonderful work for people. How do we get in touch with you, Debbie? You’re in the Severna Park area, Severna Park, Maryland.

Debbie Ulrich: Yes, Severna Park, Maryland. Correct. I do work by appointment. I’m going to give you several ways to reach me. One is my phone, which is (410) 868-7407. You can go on my website: Through there, you can email me. Just email me. You don’t have to go to the website, but that would be There are many ways you can get in touch with me. I would like to throw out that I will be more than happy to give any listener who has any questions or concerns, or you’re on the fence, should I talk to her? Should I go see her? Whatever you want, I’m going to offer you a free 30-minute consultation that can be on the phone or face to face in my office. It’s your choice, your call, but those have to be scheduled either way, whether it’s via phone or in office. I’d be happy to do that.

Jennifer Crisp: That is wonderful because I know that you’re very busy. You’re also involved with groups of practitioners who are in conventional medicine as well. You’re very integrative in your whole outlook on everything. I’m really amazed with the work that you do and the clients that have come through your office. Debbie also knows a lot of different doctors, and they’re looking at you now and going, wow, this is amazing. You’re on that bridge. It’s just interesting to see how this is all going to come together in the future because, again, I really do believe that complementary and conventional medical modalities need to work together for great patient outcome, patient and client outcome. I really believe that. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be doing this.

Jennifer Crisp: I want to thank you so much for your time today, Debbie.

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